Crowd Control Basics

So I think it is time for another basics post and this one should be a gooder. I am going to talk about the long lost art of the crowd control. I am putting this at the top so hopefully people read it.: I am trying to include pictures so that people can see what the CC looks like but I don’t want to just pull pictures off of wowhead because that just feels wrong; however, I don’t have all the characters at high enough level to show all the CC abilities so I am looking for a little help. If there is an ability that does not have a picture and you want to help out, you can send me a screeny at aelus5@hotmail.com and I will give you credit for the picture. Also, try and get the picture without anything over the mob (ie UI elements) so that it is easier to tell, so if you have to hide your UI please do that. Also I found that zooming your camera in all the way gave the best quality of pictures. Oh and anyone on the beta I would really appreciate a smoke bomb picture.

For thousands of years prior to the coming of the Lich Kings Wrath there were mystical abilities that were used to ensnare and entrap, incapacitate and slow, these abilities belong to a sect of ninjas that were part of an ancient cult called “lolwarriorsnocc”. The wrath brought by the Lich King forced all these CC’s in to submission and they were not seen from for a solid 2 years. But there is an ancient prophesy that tells of the coming of the great black dragon that will free the CC’s from there submissive state. And that time is coming to pass.

Wow that was lame, but really fun to write. So anyways yeah I am doing a guide on CC for anyone who didn’t read that above or figure it out from my lame story. We haven’t really needed to do any crowd control in wrath but we still got some new abilities for pretty much every class so that all-1 classes have a CC ability. So what I am going to do in this post is outline what every class has, what it is usable on, the practical applications for it and pictures, because who doesn’t love pictures?

I am also going to do a rundown on other types of crowd control that are not abilities but instead rely on player skill, as well as the joys of marking targets for CC and how to properly do that. Also LoS pulls. So here we go.

CC AbilitiesI am going to go through this class by class and tell you a little bit about the CC, how it breaks, whether or not it is a single use ability and what spec it belongs to if it is part of a talent tree. Oh and pictures, because I like pictures. Also anything listed here is not going to be abilities that only last for like 6 sec or 8 sec unless I have a reason for adding them which I will explain in its description.

Death Knight
Chains of Ice
This ability slows the target by 60% for 8 sec this used to go down to 0 over 8 seconds but unless the tooltip is wrong, it now stays at 60% for the full 8 seconds. This is not a CC in itself but given that it slows the enemy you could use this while kiting an add in order to keep it controlled and not hitting the group. With DK’s having a taunt the kiting should be rather simple just keep it slowed and run away while taunting .




Druid
Entangling Roots
A long time ago Entangling roots could not be used inside and many druids rejoiced when you became able to use it indoors as it gave them a CC to use. Entangling roots immobilizes one target so that they cant move, but that is all that it does. It does not silence then or stop them from attacking so you want to use it on a melee add that is out of range of everyone. If you use it on an add in the group then he will hit the closest target regardless of how good your threat is unless you are also in melee range. This breaks from dmg but a little incidental aoe shouldn’t break it, so just use it on a melee and refresh.

Cyclone
Cyclone whips the target up into the air and immobalizes, silences, pacifies, and makes them immune to everything. It only does this for 6 seconds however and after the third cast DR will stop it from working. It is not really that reliable for CC but it has a good use while CC’ing. When you use Entangling roots too many times the mobs will go immune. With a little luck and some well timed casts you can reset the DR on entangling roots by keeping them cycloned for long enough. Oh and don’t use this on the kill target because it really ticks people off.

Hibernate
Hibernate puts the target beast or dragonkin to sleep for 40 sec allowing you to pretty much forget about it. This breaks as soon as the target takes dmg but it is very reliable if used on a target outside of the group. This also means that if you have a melee and a beast or dragonkin you can keep them both locked down if you are a boomer or a tree.






Hunter
Freezing Trap
Welcome back freezing trap. This spell has a 20 second duration and traps the target in a block of ice which breaks on any dmg. With the 30 second CD on the ability you may be thinking that it is not very reliable, and you would be wrong. Back in the day you judged hunters on how well they could chain trap. I know hunters that were really bad at it and you would wait for 20 seconds later when you had to taunt that add back, and I know hunters that you could tell to trap a target and 4 min later (exaggeration) after the next two trash packs were dead you could walk back and grab the mob that was still in the block of ice. I would make a video and show you what it looks like but if you got HERE by Lassirra of The Hunters Mark, I am not going to imbed it so that you have to go watch it on youtube and because it is not my video and she deserves the credit. It is old but it is good. And with the adding of trap launcher it is much easier.

Wyvern Sting (Survival)
This sting out of the survival talent tree puts the target to sleep for 30 seconds with a 1 min CD. This breaks on any damage and doesn’t last for as long as the other ones because it cannot be reapplied. This target should probably be the first CC you break after the main kill target is dead as it only lasts 30 seconds which is long enough to kill the kill target and maybe an off target but not any longer.




Mage
Polymorph
This normally turns the target into a sheep that wanders around in a small area until it takes any damage. It lasts 50 seconds and is usually the last CC that you break as it is really reliable when the mob is far away. It can be reapplied indefinitely as long as you don’t run into DR cap. I say this is usually a sheep because some mages have polymorph-turtle or polymorph-pig or into a penguin or baby monkey if it is glyphed for that.

Slow (Arcane)
This ability comes out of the arcane tree and slows the target for 60% for 15sec. Like the Chains of Ice from the DK this will need to be accompanied by kiting in order to be affective. If you leave it alone slowed it will just walk up to someone and kill them instead of run up and kill them.

Paladin
Repentance (retribution)
This ability incapacitates the target for 1 min with a 1 min CD. This means that it is refreshable on one target but not useable on more than one ( but most CC isn’t useable on more than one target ). That being said it is really reliable and is only not useable on beasts. Think of it as useable on sentient beings and you will be good.





Priest

Shackle Undead
This roots, silences and pacifies the target for 50 sec as long as it is undead. While the applications may not be as widespread as they could have been in Wrath it may be useful at some point. Thanks to Tufva for this picture.

Mind Control
Control the mind of the targeted mob for up to 1 min. This spell is more likely to break the farther away you are from the mob you are controlling but has some interesting consequences. It is only useable on humanoids and results in trading your priest for the MC’d mob. There are 2 basic ways to use this: MC one mob in a group and let the grou kill it and then resume the pull with the rest of the CC or MC the mob and resume the pull as normal using that mob to help you fight. Remember however that the priest controlling the add is indisposed so having your healer do it is a bad idea unless you are just going to let the other guys beat the one guy down and then complete the pull. Thanks to Tufva for this picture.

Rogue
Sap
Sap is a very standard CC ability that incapacitates the target for 1 min as long as the target is not in combat. This ability breaks on any dmg and cannot be reapplied. This is a good way to have some fun with your rogues as they must be relatively close to their target to get a sap off. So give them the target at the back of a group against a wall with a dog with true sight in the front ( yes I have done that, and yes he did get it). This not being able to be reapplied should be one of your first CC broken and killed, but remember to have fun with it. Remember however that this CC has the advantage of not causing combat to start when it is applied to its target so that makes it useful for guaranteeing that someone is out of the fight.

Smoke Bomb (85)
I know this isn’t in the game yet and I know that rogues don’t get it till level 85 and that it is not technically a CC ability but it forces mobs to run to you instead of casting and is basically a portable LoS device. I cant get a picture yet but at 85 if I remember I will try to update it with a picture.

Shaman
Hex
Hex is basically Polymorph and lasts for 1 min, has a 45sec CD, turns them into a frog, allows the target to take some damage before breaking...so I guess it isn’t like polymorph all that much. This can be used on multiple targets now and can by glyphed down to a 30 sec CD although CC'ing 2 mobs isnt really possible by yourself with the CD.

Bind Elemental
So this is basically the polymorph for elementals. It lasts 50 sec, breaks on damage, and stops elementals from doing anything, so you can use this in basically the same way that you use polymorph

Frost shock/Earthbind Totem
Frost shock has a 6 second CD and slows the target by 50% for 8 sec, while also causing a high amount of threat. This combined with Earthbind Totem, which slows targets within 10 yards, allows shamans to be very strong kiters

Warlock
Banish
This spell is like a 30 second Druid Cyclone that only works on demons and elementals. This can not break on damage and can only end by running out of time or by having the warlock recast banish on the same target. This is basically THE CC for demons and elementals if you have a warlock with you, and although I don’t see there being that many demons in cata there should be a ton of elementals.
 
Enslave Demon
This is situational as, unless it has changed, this replaces their demon but with soul shards gone now, warlock who flat refuses to do this if they are already using their banish is just being selfish. Basically it just enslaves the demon for 5 min and then when it ends the demon is released; however, the demon gets an attack and cast speed nerf. After the fight is over you can either release the demon and kill it or use it for the next pull and then release and kill it.




Fear
This causes the target to run away in fear for 20 seconds. The problem with this is that it can run into another pack of mobs and aggro them to you. This is however eliminated by the glyph of fear which causes them to cower instead of run in fear and gives the ability a 5 second CD. This means that for PvE purposes it is significantly better allowing the warlock to keep the mob locked down for a little while.







Curse of Exhaustion (Affliction)
And just when you thought that your warlock couldn’t do anything else, you realize that they are affliction and that they can slow a target by 50% for 30 sec and kite it around just like a mage or death knight.

Seduction (succubus)
Oh wait, waht was that, you mean that the demon you were going to enslave is actually a humanoid? Well have no fear because once again the warlock can handle that. Getting out his succubus and using seduction allows him to lock down an enemy humanoid for 15 seconds as long as it channels the spell. So pretty much the warlock can lock down 4 targets if it is the right mob pack. This might be even more fun than giving the rogue a crappy sap target.


Warrior
And not to be outdone by warlocks the warrior is going to...well I mean he can...no? huh....what can a warrior do? Oh right...

Hamstring
Slows the target by 50% for 15 sec. Read the DK-chains of ice or mage-slow cause I’m not typing it out again. Also this has no noticeable effect so sorry warriors no screeny, unless you want me to just take a picture of me running.

So there you have it that is, I think the full list of CC abilities in the game but there is more than just abilities that can be used as CC. These are the CC skills, not abilities, skills. These are only partially determined by class but mostly have to do with player skill and their ability to actually execute them.

Kiting
Kiting is named after a kite. The idea is that you are “attached” to your mob by the invisible threads of aggro; however the mob is never allowed to reach you, as if you were to be pulling a kite along after you ( this may or may not be true but i am going with it ). Usually kiting is done by having a move speed difference between you and your kiting targets, either they have a slow on them or you have a speed increase. If they have a speed increase or you a movement slow then you may want to try kiting a different target after you run back to your corpse. Hunters are basically able to kite anything due to having aspect of the cheetah which allows them to move faster as long as they are not getting hit, however any mob that is not immune to slow can be kited by anyone as long as you have a DK, Arcane Mage, Affliction warlock with the curse or a Warrior. That being said though, if the mob is slow moving you can kite it regardless of group comp, like the deformed fanatics on the LDW fight in ICC.

Off Tanking
Sorry clothies this one is not for you unless you are a warlock (/facepalm). This can be done with any tanking class for a short period of time if you absolutely need to. This can also be done by a hunter pet or a warlock blueberry or felguard. This is as easy as it sounds. Taunt or gain aggro on a mob and then pull him away from the group and tank him till the first target dies. This is not the same as what happens in Wrath right now where you just aoe until the mobs start attacking you and then keep going, giggling to yourself because if your healer has half a brain and your gear is good enough then you won’t die. Don’t just offtank the add because you will die. This needs to be something that you decide to do with your whole group and more specifically your tank and healer. If you are just going to pick it up there are three likely outcomes: 1) you pull it off and healer and tank don’t notice or the healer can’t keep up with the new dmg going out and you die. 2) You pull and have a good tank and immediately lose agro. 3) you pull and the tank decides that you are not worth it in which case situation 1 becomes your reality. If you just pull it off you may live but don’t count on it.

Line of Sight Pulling (LoS)
This used to be needed but pretty much never happened in wrath except to move trash in some raids. This involves pulling a target and then moving around a corner or pillar so that the enemy casters stop casting and run towards you so that you can pick them up easier. This enables you to pick everything in a confined area. This is used when the CC needed is non-existent. When you have a large amount of very weak casters that you don’t need to CC such as non-elite, but they are in the way of a patrol of strong elites so you can aoe the casters down but need them out of the way so that you don’t aggro the strong patrol because you will need to crowd control them. LoS pulls use changes in elevation, pillars, walls, corners, outcroppings and in cata possibly a rogue smoke bomb in order to cause the casters to run to you. Here are some pictures so that you know what I am talking about. I am going to pull this pack with casters in the first picture to where I am standing. I am going to pop out and hit one target then immediately tuck back behind the corner. If you do it right the mobs will be all bunched up just like in picture number 2. And thats all there is to it. Just make sure that you look for places where you can LoS.

Silences
So the commenters have spoken, and I shall respond in kind. They ask for silences and they shall have them. Silences are not directly CC in a PvE environment (imo) but they are very important to have. Silences, and by extension, inturrupts cause a caster mob to stop casting and run towards the target that has highest aggro on. These are extremely useful in situtaions when the tank wants to tank a caster but he wont move or if you are trying to stop a large damage attack or heal that you dont want to go off. There is pretty much no bad thing to inturrupt, there may be better choices but if you see a spell being cast and have presence of mind to inturrupt it, go for it. Chances are that anything that absolutely needs to be inturrupted is being watched closely by your tank or you will be told to inturrupt it. These are very valuable abilities and if you are askied to use them for a specific reason, you should. NEVER assume that someone else is going to inturrupt something important unless they expressly say that they will, and even then you should be on edge a little. This is a list of CD by class with the name(spec) Duration and CD in that order as well as any potential quirks. As always, leave a comment if i miss anything (keep in mind that these are direct silences and not things that you can inturrupt casts with or i would be looking for abilities all night).

Death Kinght
Mind Freeze-4 sec, 10 secCD
Strangulate-5 sec, 2 min CD (1 min talented in Blood)

Druid
Skull Bash-5 sec, 1 min CD (10 sec talented Feral)
Solar Beam(balance)-10 sec, 1 min CD (must be standing in solar beam to be silenced)

Hunter
Silencing shot(marksmanship)-3 sec, 20 sec CD

Mage
Counterspell-8 sec, 24 sec CD (only silences that school of magic. ie.frost, fire, arcane, nature...)

Paladin
Rebuke(Retrobution)-4 sec, 10 sec CD

Priest
Silence(shadow)- 5 sec, 45 sec CD

Rogue
Kick-5sec, 10 sec CD

Shaman
Wind Shear-2sec, 8 sec CD (only silences the school of magic that was being cast, like counterspell)

Warlock
Spell Lock(felhunter)-3 sec, 24 sec CD (if used on a target while they are casting it will also lock out spells in that school of magic for 6 sec, otherwise it is simply a 3 sec silence)

Warrior
Shield Bash-6 sec, 12 sec CD (must be in battle or defensive stance with a shield equipped and only silences the school of magic being cast, 3 sec CD if talented Prot)
Pummel-4 sec, 10 sec CD (must be in battle or berserker stance)
Heroic Throw-3sec, 30 sec CD (must be talented in prot for this effect)

Raid Icons
Raid icons are useful in more than just a raid and allow you to put a mark above the head of a mob that will show up on their portrait for all party and raid members when you target them. This allows you to easily mark which target you want to have CC by who as well as who is your main kill target/secondary kill target. Back when I learned to tank there was something that every tank said after looking at his group and it went something that went like this...”sap star, sheep moon, trap square. Kill order is skull, X, star, square, moon.” After that was said everyone knew what was going on and the tank would mark and pull. Knowing what to mark for what CC isn’t hard but there is something of an art to it. That caster in the back behind the mob with true sight...that is a perfect target to tell your rogue to sap. The melee in the group is good to have a hunter chain trap. Generally it is good to sheep as it is a ranged CC and allows you to pull with it and have that mob way out of the group. Generally at the start of the run you want to look and see what kind of party members you have and think about all your possible CC options. What are your CC options you ask? Really. You need to read better. After you have decided what you have then you need to remember what each one is effective against as well as its weaknesses. You don’t want to tell your warlock to banish the humanoid. Then you want to assign each CC ability, or each party member if you have more than one of each class, a raid icon. Then move to the pull. You want to look at the group that you are attacking. Generally there is going to be a mix of ranged and melee targets to CC and it is your job to know which to use which CC on. I would love to tell you that there is a best way to do this but it is personal preference at some point, just try and be predictable and consistent. There is no right or wrong way to go about assigning marks but remember that Skull is always the kill target and historically star is sap and moon is sheep which may make it easier to appeal to the older group of raiders. One last thing about this is that if you are the tank, get used to doing this. If you don’t want to then run with a guild and have someone else do it, suck it up and do it, or stop tanking because that was the tanks job back in the day and I think that that is not going to change. And for DPS and healers, in wrath there was no consequence to checking off that you would be the group leader, but with the new (old?) instance philosophy you might get made to mark things if you choose to be group leader so just make sure that you are ready for that. If you are a tank and you flat refuse to mark targets then, in my books, that is reasonable grounds to vote kick you from the group, if you don’t want to do it then ask if anyone else is comfortable, never demand the group fill a role that has, and probably always will be reserved for tanks and raid leaders. The raid icons are Skull, X, Square, Moon, Star, Circle, Diamond and Triangle

So this is everything that I have for right now. As always if you have an idea that you think will help throw it in the comments and if I add it in you will get credit. I hope this doesn’t go unnoticed because I think it is a good thing for everyone to know. Until next time, have a good one.

Hardest Boss in the Game

So we have been trying to down H LK and get our "Bane of the Fallen King" titles because they are super cool but we have been having some trouble with the hardest boss in the game, which is probably not the one you are thinking of. I actually dont know how hard H LK is because we have been losing to the attendance boss for 2 weeks now. It seems like after we got our drakes, that the people who weren't part of our original group of about 6 or 7 have just stopped showing up. This sucks. Luckily we are still able to do most of the heroics with pugs and are currently trying to get someone who is interested his drake for 20k gold which we will partially split among the regulars so I guess that is alright.

Also I am almost done with my CC basics post but i have to put it together and i have been really busy and been having internet issues so I'll try to get that out soon as i think it could become a valuable resource.

Spoooooky, but not really, just awesome

Its halloween today!!!! Every year for halloween i always carve a pumpkin, it used to be a thing i did with my mom but as I have gotten older i have moved to just doing it myself. I have done the standard pumpikins: The face, the owl, the haunted house but this year i was hanging out with my friend and i was like we should do some wow pumpkins, i know its nerdy but i think you will agree that it was an awesome idea. So we were sitting there and did not know what to carve and I said that we should carve the horde symbol into one this year, and then i thought that there was no reason that we couldnt do two pumpkins so I got my mom to get me 2 pumpkins while she was out and about (thanks mom) and we carved them on friday.

We decided to do the horde symbol and the alliance symbol. My friend ended up doing the horde one because he is less artistically inclined so i did the alliance one. I felt kind of like i was betraying the horde but once i finished the pumpkin it was so awesome that the feeling immediatly went away. So yes i did do the alliance one and it turned out really good.

It took about 2-2.5 hours to draw the picture onto the pumpkin and carve it out which was longer than i have ever spent on a pumpkin before. I did not use a stencil or anything i just looked at a picture and free-handed it on with a sharpie then carved it with your run of the mill pumpkin carving set that costs like 3$. Oh and if you are ever going to carve a pmpkin dont try and buy carving tools 2 days before halloween because we were driving around for like 2 hours trying to find carving tools. Enough about the pumpkin though, here it is.

Oh and just to cut off anyone saying that i didnt actually carve this pumpkin, I did. I am not going to try and convince you other than simply stating it so just take it at face value.

Have a happy halloween and all those of you with kiddies going out tonight, have fun.

Reforging

So i did actually end up going back and changing my reforging and i think overall it is better. I was originally going for hit then expertise. I am under the impression now that hit cap is still good to get to so go for that. But after you get that hit capped you should move to going for mastery. I have not fully flipped everything over yet but i am thinking that we should turn our haste into mastery after we are hit capped. And on rings and trinkets where you don't have haste, turn some of that dodge into mastery because with the DR's from dodge you are getting higher return by making it into mastery atm. Also those rings and trinkets and necks and capes with armor on them are not as good as they were before the patch so if you get an opportunity to get a jewelry or cape with high stam and agil and no armor you should grab it even though it is meant for dps players because in our present state we are balanced around agility so it is alot better right now than strength because strength doesn't do almost anything for us, if it even has a purpose. Stam still=good though.

Its a short one but i am working on my CC post and right now i am trying to get pictures of all the CC methods which is taking a little time, but the post is 3500 words and not totally finished yet so it is very thorough.

WHOOSH!!!!!!

So this is a bit delayed as it happened last Tuesday but it was funny so i thought i would share.

I don't know how many of you have done heroic lich king attempts on either 10 or 25 but we did like 4 attempts on Tuesday just to see what it was like because that was the first chance we had had to try it at all. Well in phase 1 there is a new mechanic added that is called shadow trap. What happens is that LK casts the "summon shadow trap" spell which causes a shadow trap to form under a random raid member which waits 5 seconds to activate and then just sits there until it dissipates. well if everyone gets out within those 5 it just sits there and doesn't do anything, but if after those 5 seconds someone is still inside or for some reason hits it then it does an aoe explosion that hits for quite a lot.

Now you be thinking, "big deal lots of things do aoe dmg" but there is one more thing that happens that guarantees that you die. When the shadow trap explodes it does a knock back for everyone within 10 yards. "Knock back" is pretty inaccurate however since it launches you 2-3 times the distance that the platform is across. It would be like a shaman using a thundershock in AB and doing a knock back that sends you from LM all the way to Mine

Well we are doing our first attempt and i know what the ability does and I'm ready for it and shadow trap gets cast, DBM tells me there is a shadow crash nearby. Well just so you know...shadow crash nearby, and shadow crash on you are not very different. In my infinite wisdom i thought to myself "oh well its just nearby, so i just have to be careful not to move into it." This thought was followed by me and our 2 melee being launched like 400 yards into the middle of nowhere.

Now i would say that i was disappointed but after it happened i thought that was one of the coolest death mechanics i have ever had. The frost orbs in the phase transitions are nothing, its like a baby knock back. I would suggest that everyone should "accidentally" hit a shadow trap just to see what it is like if they have the chance, but i will deny that i ever typed that out and posted it on the Internet. But seriously...don't do it more than once on purpose but if you get the chance just try it out.

On the Wings of Death

A busy schedule has been kind of reducing my output a little but I am going to try and get this off in between two of my classes.

First off anyone at Blizzcon I hope that you are having fun and I totally wish I was there. A student’s budget does not make for a very whimsical traveler.

So after a little hard work I would just like to report that Jey, Guardian of Cenarius is now the proud owner of a Bloodbathed Frostbrood Vanquisher. I can’t post pictures right now because I don’t have any access to wow but I will try and get some up within a few days. Overall I found that the ICC Meta achievement was pretty fun to work towards. Some of the achieves became a lot easier after the patch so I would say to anyone that is looking to get their drake to go for it and not wait till Cata.

Generally we have been doing pretty well but we did have about a month where we were losing to the pre-expansion attendance boss so I would say that about 4 months worth of time to get us our drake doing at most 9 hours a week, usually about 6, was pretty credible. We have finally, within the last 3 or so weeks, gotten 10 people who are reliable and good players *crosses fingers* and if they all stay for Cata I think we should be a force to be reckoned with when 10 and 25 are on par for difficulty.

As for our plans for the rest of the expansion...well if you know what is involved in the Meta achievement then you know what the only thing left is. That’s right, it is time to smash our face against the wall that is Heroic Lich King and hopefully get our “Bane of the Fallen King” titles. And if we do get them, you can bet that I will make a post about it.

One last thing. I am planning on doing a post about crowd control that should pretty long like my basics posts but I have yet to start on it, as well as, if I am quick about it, a general walkthrough of the Meta for 10 man. So stay tuned for those (if there is anyone tuned in anyway).

A Week Later...

So it has been about a week since the patch dropped and I feel like I want to make a short post about some things that really hit me after a few more raids.

First off, 4.0.1 is making getting your drakes a lot easier now so if you are working on it you should have good time to get it if you are remotely close. The extra damage from everyone as well as most people being more interested in getting to know their class seems (to me at least) to be making people more eager to do stuff.

I know that healing is higher than it was pre-4.0.1 but it seems like healers are having to get used to things a little more than they are used to so give them a little bit more leeway.

My damage is through the roof. Since the patch i have been doing so much more damage that it is not even funny. Vengeance does not make much difference in a heroic but when the boss is wailing on you in a raid you do a lot more damage than you would otherwise. While not a boss, the blood wing trash was giving me enough Vengeance to hit for about 14k with swipe. I also did about 8.5k dps on one of our heroic blood princes attempts while tanking Valanaar and Taldaram (and was highest on damage) but was only at about 6.5k on the attempt where we killed them.

Some people are talking about how they seem to be doing less relative threat than before and I am sticking with my previous assessment that reforging for Hit and Expertise. Right now your survivability should be at least the same but probably better than before so why change that. As it stands most wipes in our raids are not from tank deaths but from incorrect placements of things, positioning, or just general mess ups by the raid. And at the same time healer throughput is definitely higher than it was before so you shouldn't be having any trouble staying alive. The way I see it was that pre-patch the biggest issue we were having was holding threat off of dps that were scaling way faster than us and after gemming hit and expertise I no longer have to worry about my threat. Granted I probably could turn some of that expertise into mastery to give me some larger SD bubbles but at this time I don't really see the need. This could very well change in Cata when we start leveling but for now I think that this is the way to go. Obviously however if you are finding yourself dying while tanking go for more survivability, but remember that hitting the boss almost every time will give you more SD uptime. One las thing on this is that by no means should you be leaving all that haste on your gear, if you have haste on your gear reforge it into something because right now in T10 you have way too much haste that isn't doing a whole lot.

I find, and this is totally personal, that the bear "rotation" is a lot more fun than it used to be. I think that right now it is in a very good place as far as difficulty. It is not too hard that you lose track of what you are doing, but it is hard enough that you have room to improve. I still need to find a addon that will stick my rage bar somewhere that I like it so that I better know when to maul to bleed off my rage but that will come when everything is updated and I have to get used to using demo roar again so I don't keep forgetting.

If you haven't been able to tell, I definitely think that we are in a good place and I hope that that keeps up into Cata, because even though I will never stop playing my druid, I like how bear tanking is right now.